GGPOKER UK, withholding funds from OP

[silentryan7]

Ok guys, another crazy gambling story, I turned $30 into $25K online at ggpoker. It was my best run yet on blackjack. I planned to withdraw 20k and gamble the remaining 5k as anyone would, by then I would have approximately 16,000 British pounds, a year salary. Could have went around the world the lot. Anyways back to the point, I go to withdraw 20k and to my dismay it said I could only withdraw 10k every 24 hours, I was like okay not a big deal, I withdrew 10k, gambled the 5k as I planned, lost. Had 10k left. All I had to do was log off and come back on 24 hours later, simple right, well when that rush of dopamine is going through your body turning 30 into 25k anyone would lose their fucking minds. End of the story it happend exactly the way casino planned it, max 10k withdrawal anymore than that you need to wait 24 hours and by then casinos thinking most people would gamble the rest away, it's a shocking tactic and iv looked on gambling commission website, putting limits per day on withdrawals is not allowed, contacted the operator, awaiting response. Any idea what will happen here?

 

[thr0b]

There is no cap on withdrawals at UK regulated sites for players in the UK. But you say you’re playing in dollars? No UK site will allow that. Are you sure you’re playing on the UK site from the UK?

The GG brand is used by a few operators in different jurisdictions.

 

[silentryan7]

GGpoker UK is company. IBAS is the ADR. Its UK regulated

 

[thr0b]

Okey doke - you’ll want to raise a PAB (see top of page), but if you’ve spent the money, I doubt there’s much you can do other than complain to the regulator.

 

[silentryan7]

Well iv contacted the company andthe UKGC they are very eager to hear the outcome of the complaint, yes funds were spent just exactly what the casino wanted

 

[L&L-Jan]

Yes, if you wish to withdrawal your whole balance they should have allowed you to do so. Isn't there anything on the withdrawal page stating that if you wish to withdrawal more than 10k, to contact support?

 

[silentryan7]

Well this happend in December last year and it said on withdrawals page max withdraw 10k per 24 hours. Obviously I withdrew the 10k and tried to contact live support or phone support but no answer. I ended up gambled the rest. Was gonna withdraw 20k, I did let it go cause I had 10k but then read withdrawals rules on UKGC website and now deciding to complain as that shouldn't have happend only reason a company would put restrictions like that on would be to let the customer gamble it all away. Its morally wrong, casino got what they wanted as usual.

 

[jasonuk]

While the UKGC states there shouldn't be an overall limit, the individual payment method can be capped by the operator, payment provider and/or destination.

In that case, you may be able to use a different method (e.g. bank transfer instead of debit card) for higher limits - or wait for the daily limit to reset and do it the next day.

It is worth noting that GGPoker have some funny rules anyway - and multiple affiliate sites mention they previously used tiered documentation requests for withdrawals including source of wealth and notorised documents (which could be considered rogue behaviour). I predictably can't find that mentioned on the UK site, but also struggling to find it in the current terms for ROW so it's possible they have removed it - but could also mean they've removed the documentation from the website after a backlash and still operate that internally. So be careful...

Also, they don't mention a formal limit for UK players but do reserve the right to cap players elsewhere - the limit I saw was $20k per month. So unless they actively prevented you from a withdrawal (rather than imposed a payment cap for that method) then I doubt you have much room to argue here - and even if they did given you've already spent the money I suspect that limits your chances considerably.

 

[silentryan7]

Yeah they can do that legally to be people in the USA but not in UK that's against regulation so i think I have a case.

 

[jasonuk]

It depends exactly on what they did, and exactly what you did. A lot of sites will impose debit card limits because those are passed on by the banks - £5k, £10k, £15k are quite common.

If they offered bank transfers (which you can do with the underlying account to the debit card) then that may have allowed you to withdraw the full amount. They may have put the funds on hold to verify the two are the same account (e.g. to ensure it is closed loop) but that might have satisfied the criteria.

 

[silentryan7]

It depends exactly on what they did, and exactly what you did. A lot of sites will impose debit card limits because those are passed on by the banks - £5k, £10k, £15k are quite common.

If they offered bank transfers (which you can do with the underlying account to the debit card) then that may have allowed you to withdraw the full amount. They may have put the funds on hold to verify the two are the same account (to ensure it is closed loop) but that might have satisfied the criteria.

Thing is they are not allowed to rely upon withdrawal limits at all for UK players, it's just not allowed, because of that message on withdrawals page, saying max withdraw 10k per 24 hours. If that wasn't there, I would have still withdrawn 20k and waited but the way it was worded it was like only option is keep this remaining money in your balance long as possible until 24 hours are up, now doing that to a gambler is cruel, even if I had requested the withdraw, and it worked, the message should have said, although you can withdraw whatever balance you want, you might be only able to receive 10k per 24 hours but youl get rest in due course, not a message saying only 10k maximum, that almost give the punter 2 choices, wait 24 hours. Again against the rules, or what I did. Gamble furthermore and try your luck. And lose. Just like the casino wanted to happen

 

[DreamRJ]

The thing with poker sites is like Pokerstars if you win prices in for example poker tables or in the instance of pokerstars "the races" you know those events that you play slots in you get 100 spins and try get the highest score etc? Well when you win money from them, Pokerstars used to pay you in Dollars. So I am guessing GGPoker is the same, they pay out some as dollars.

So if your whole balance was in dollars you can not convert that to pounds you would have to withdraw it first then redeposit it.

That might be why.

Also maybe you just got confused with that wording. You should have just tried to do the 20K withdraw bud and saw what happened. I am guessing you would have got it fine because yes UKGC no limit as such.

 

[jasonuk]

Thing is they are not allowed to rely upon withdrawal limits at all for UK players, it's just not allowed, because of that message on withdrawals page, saying max withdraw 10k per 24 hours.

From what I can find, the limits are displayed on the payment method screen - which means those are limits per payment method (which are permitted, and capped by third parties). The UKGC rules refers to overall limits.

There are so many alternatives they can point to - using a second payment method (such as a bank transfer), setting a bet limit, setting a 24 hour timeout - and ultimately it'll come down to personal responsibility.

Not that this is news, given you got very similar replies on the reddit crosspost (which has since been locked). I would strongly advise against repeating the colourful language you used over there...

 

[Casinomeister]

@silentryan7 - hiya - I am a little confused why you were playing in USD? You're in the UK, right?

 

[Casinomeister]

Their terms and conditions are pretty vague - surprising for a UKGC casino IMO.

Other Withdrawal Information

For larger withdrawals, GGPoker may split the amount into smaller withdrawals to facilitate the request. However, any withdrawal fee incurred will not be increased as a result of this segmentation.

That's it. The "may" split the withdrawal up since it's a "large" withdrawal (not specified). Those are the terms you agreed to possibly when signing up.

What did the customer service rep do to explain what happened? What is in their opinion a large withdrawal - and where is this specified? The vagueness of their T&Cs gives them a lot of manoeuvrability.

Are you seriously trying to claim the money you played back? That won't happen unless there was a game malfunction.

Look at the bright-side, you won $10K off of USD $30 - that's pretty awesome.

 

[jasonuk]

@silentryan7 - hiya - I am a little confused why you were playing in USD? You're in the UK, right?

As the poker site operates games in USD, they default all wallets to USD. Deposits and Withdrawals are similarly measured in USD, but with a live conversion calculation which indicates the amount in your local currency (e.g. GBP) to be deposited or withdrawn.

Stars does it slightly differently in that they use multiple currencies and you can convert between them (up to a daily and monthly limit). I don't know if they still do, but they used to have a nasty sting that they charged you 2.5% if you withdrew from a wallet that wasn't in your own currency (even though the conversion was free in the cashier).

That's it. The "may" split the withdrawal up since it's a "large" withdrawal (not specified). Those are the terms you agreed to possibly when signing up.

That term relates to their processing of the withdrawal - and is fairly common. It doesn't need to be more specific because it will be on a case by case basis, and those limits are set by the payment provider and/or bank rather than GGpoker.

If the payment processor flags that the withdrawal is too big (for example, they allow £50k per day, but only £10k per transaction), then you are authorising GGpoker to split the transaction automatically - without further intervention on your part, and at no additional cost to you.

The alternative is they decline the withdrawal and tell you to do it again with lower amounts - which sounds dangerously like a stealth reverse and should be avoided.

That doesn't apply in this case because the player is hitting the daily limit for that payment method (every 24 hours), and thus would needed to use a second or alternative payment method (such as bank transfer for that account) or wait the 24 hours.

For context, banks will often recommend bank transfers for larger amounts (as in this case, e.g. £10k+), or CHAPS for very large amounts (e.g. £100k+).

 

[silentryan7]

UPDATE, So as to be expected GGpoker have now changed their terms and conditions on the withdrawal policy AFTER this issue happend clearly stating there is limits, and "you are responsible for the money your betting" clearly a derogatory remark aimed at me, I ought to have them in court for slander as well. Anyway stage one complaint was not upheld as funds were spent, nothing in response to any of my factual accusations of them breaking the rules not clearly stating your able to withdraw more than 10k n it would be okay, was nothing mentioned at all. Support virtually non existent. Complaint is now at stage 2 of Complaint process. I'll have a decision within 8 weeks, after that it's IBAS then small claims court for 10k, I only need 10% of that in court fees, give it a month or two and I'll have it. They think now just coz they've changed their terms to make it more clear in the way of the law but there forgetting I screenshotted their previous withdrawal policy so they don't have a leg to stand on really.

Wish me luck guys

 

[jasonuk]

I'm not seeing the change that you mention - the Terms and Conditions were last changed in February and there's nothing in the (UK-facing) Withdrawal Policy along those lines. I don't play there so if it's in the cashier or somewhere else then I wouldn't be able to see it anyway.

As we said before, unless you can demonstrate they applied an account limit (which is forbidden by UKGC) rather than a payment method limit (which is permitted by the UKGC, and dictated by third parties) then I think you're on a hiding to nothing. From what you've told us so far, you've hit the latter and not the former - and if that's the case I struggle to see anyone siding with your claim. I guess time will tell.

 

[silentryan7]

Well the terms changed on the site when I logged in today and it highlighted the changes, so if they say it's effective as of February they're definitely fucking lying, I'm definitely taking them to court now!

 

[silentryan7]

Also this issue happend in December 2023, so they have changed the terms after the fact. Regardless. Like they think changing the terms now makes a difference. Pathetic