clogs VS the casinos (rigged rtp, etc)

[KasinoKing]

I truly think it's rigged, not a chance these online casinos have 96% rtp games, give back 2% rtp in rakeback. An use the remaining 2% to pay all the providers, the live staff, the security teams, the internet providers, the power companies, the taxes, ,the backroom staff like, the lawyers an accountants, an then make a profit

Hmmm... your maths is a bit off there buddy!
They make 4% off every single bet (in the long run)
If you kept playing even a 99.9% RTP game indefinitely, you would eventually bust out. So the casino would take 100% of your money, not just 0.1%.

But I get your point, and it certainly does feel that way sometimes: big win followed by crap-all.

What game were you referring to in your opening post?

KK

 

[clogs]

Shining crown. You do 500 spins up an down, finally hit a 100-200x an boom , 200 spins later that money is gone

 

[clogs]

What I think they do is have groups of outcomes an it switches to generating a result from a group with much worse outcomes as soon as you make a profit or hit big.

 

[kou187]

So glad I stumbled upon this topic and people are thinking exactly what I have been for a while now. Makes me feel slightly less like its just me going mad.

It all started to feel very noticeable around the time the slots got converted from flash to html in my opinion.

And I would say at the very early doors of slot streaming on twitch. Which I was part of for around a year or 2 back when the slot section had like 15 people streaming, on a busy night! Before nickslots existed. So I'm not someone who's just talking out my arse. Just wanted to be clear.

That just happened to be around the same time all of sudden the slots went to html. I know why they went to html. I'm sure it was to do with a security breach on flash. So it had to be done. I get that. But you have to ask yourself.......

Did they change anything else?

Not only did the quality drop on the games them self's in terms of music, style, of the slots. But the way they pay now is not the same as they did say roughly 6 years ago. Its very noticeable and you can use many games as an example.

Let me list games that Do NOT pay like they used to. Don't care what anyone says, not out of ignorance. But I know damn well I and many others have played these games a hell of a lot to justify what I and many others are saying.

So if your gonna come in here as a software dev or what ever. And tell me online slots are 100% random and every spin is a totally random event and not based on player spend and patterns, algorithms etc.

Please don't bother.

And no im not wearing a tin foil hat either. It's a tesco carrier bag. So let's get that right

The same people that defend this b.s is either people that make money based on this industry.

Or some one that plays on a weekend for a few hours so would never notice patterns like this anyway.



Raging rhino
( And all other WMS html re releases)
Amazon Queen montezuma Bruce Lee etc

Drad or alive 1 Gonzos quest ( and every single other net ent game converted to html) flowers, steam tower, etc

I know there's way more games that aren't the same as they used to be But they are some for example.

Like others have said in this thread. These games now are literally 90 percent of your spins are dead. None existent base games. Feel blessed by mother Theresa if you land a bonus. That's the vibe you get now playing them.

And that's how the slots are being produced now. Aimed at bonus buys and new creative ways of getting as much money out the player as fast as they can

No limit citys (Idiot spin) is a great example

Fuck the normal guy that wants to actually spin the reels.

Money money money that's all its about for them obviously now seeing the introduction of things such as no limit city stupid 1 click win or lose scams,

They are not even bonus buys and should be illegal if you ask me. There bullshit actually cost me a week of chasing up b.c games live chat. Silly me thought he'd bought a bonus on there new 9-5 game.

Turns out I had actually purchased some new Bullshit they do.
Were you click and either win or lose.

I had thought I had purchased a bonus round that never started. So yeah they got me good with that shit.

Sorry for going off topic....

Back to the matter at hand

my thoughts on what's going on Is that the huge leap online slots took when the streaming game got involved, May actually be a reason as to why these games no longer feel as generous as they used to with the huge jump of players from the mid 2000's to now.

Or give you the hours and hours of play time like they used to most of the time when betting on moderate stakes.

Maybe the huge jump of players in the rng pool is what caused it?


We will never know.
But we 100% do know

They are not the same as they once were.

 

[clogs]

I joined duelbits an my luck was crazy good, then went back to unlucky.

Makes me wonder, do they have algorythms that get you to go on tilt.

I've also noticed they can tell when a player will not leave a slot until they get back to what they lost, an will give them amazing luck to get back to 85-90%. An then just for again an take it all back really quickly making you go on tilt an keep depositing

 

[Jono777]

Just to add to the above, can only comment on Dead or Alive really as that's all I can afford to play since they rigged them

There is definatley a "server switch" at some point with this game.

You can chuck £20 in and be plodding along nicely, lose a bit, win a bit, odd 5OAK premium (Glass, Boots, Hats - Forget the rest they don't exist anymore, maybe ONCE a year for Guns and Stars) Odd feature for between 10x and 50x every 100 spins or so, 4OAK premiums quite often to at least hold the balance, you get he general idea.

Then BOOM! - After the preset "timer" has elapsed, all that goes and it is BLATANT. No more 50AK, maybe, just maybe the 'K' or 'A' if your super lucky, basically wins only reach reel 3 and scatters seems to be removed from the reel sets, you'll struggle to even see a "teaser" spin (I refer to this as "Game over - The single scatter show is in town!")

I will eventually get RSI typing this last bit but I only depo lightly and what I'm willing to lose and the casino is welcome to it but PLEASE, now and again just take it s-l-o-w-l-y.

 

[clogs]

Happens on shinning crown, plod along with 100x up an down an then boom, you get to 300x an it's just down down down, all then nice little hits that kept your balance ok for the last hour have disappeared an it sends you back down to 100x again in 2 minutes, seen it happen 100 times

 

[kou187]

Just to add to the above, can only comment on Dead or Alive really as that's all I can afford to play since they rigged them

There is definatley a "server switch" at some point with this game.

You can chuck £20 in and be plodding along nicely, lose a bit, win a bit, odd 5OAK premium (Glass, Boots, Hats - Forget the rest they don't exist anymore, maybe ONCE a year for Guns and Stars) Odd feature for between 10x and 50x every 100 spins or so, 4OAK premiums quite often to at least hold the balance, you get he general idea.

Then BOOM! - After the preset "timer" has elapsed, all that goes and it is BLATANT. No more 50AK, maybe, just maybe the 'K' or 'A' if your super lucky, basically wins only reach reel 3 and scatters seems to be removed from the reel sets, you'll struggle to even see a "teaser" spin (I refer to this as "Game over - The single scatter show is in town!")

I will eventually get RSI typing this last bit but I only depo lightly and what I'm willing to lose and the casino is welcome to it but PLEASE, now and again just take it s-l-o-w-l-y.

This is also my exact same experience mate. How is that even possible?

It's same every month with d.o.a and its just got to the point in month We're like every month. No matter what casino I play the game on, I tried 3 different ones, Bonus impossible to land. Scatters rare. Wins rare. Game totally dead. It just turns off for me almost like it wants to shaft way more money while I'm still depositing before it resumes to its normal self. I find if I keep depositing to play the game on any site. It will run like this until it wants to return to being normal and not robbing me. I usually wait a week to play and All of a sudden you put 20 quid into videos lots. Bonuses first press or some shit like that. And you just laugh at the riggedness of it all.

Riggedness is a word I made up. Sounds good though. Lol

 

[clogs]

They have a license to steal money an noone will ever hold them to account, they know games are addictive an people will hope the bad luck turns to good so will empty their bank accounts chasing

 

[kou187]

Why do slots do this?

Player deposits 20 pounds
Player loses down to 3.91 left im the balance.

Bonus round lands, and randomly out of all the amounts it could randomly select. It happens to put you right back to the balance you just had. This can happen over and over through out sessions were it almost feels like there a thresholds in place.

Random burgers with chips

 

[sufferinsilence]

Happens on shinning crown, plod along with 100x up an down an then boom, you get to 300x an it's just down down down, all then nice little hits that kept your balance ok for the last hour have disappeared an it sends you back down to 100x again in 2 minutes, seen it happen 100 times

When you hit one of the top prizes on a fruit game like that, take it and run. It's very rare to go on a run on any slot, let alone one of those.

 

[clogs]

It's just before you hit say the 500x you were never more than 70 down after 30 mins of play so you figure enjoy the moment an keep spinning, but then 5 mins later it's already taken back 200x an you think ok im due after this worst possible run, then 5 mins later your down another 200x an your thinking wait a min l, 30 mins an only went down 70x at one point but now you hit big your down 400x in 10 minutes an your there thinking, where is the investigation into this

 

[pekka55]

You've got base games than return 30-40% RTP everywhere these days - of course your money's going to go down at a quicker rate. It's to entice you into committing to playing for a bonus, as that's where the money is. If the bonus hit rate is 1 in 150 spins, they want an average of 150 spins' worth of money in total play from you every time you load the game up.

The base game will not sustain your balance in any way on today's slots. Years ago you could easily float around the break-even mark on some base games for a reasonable amount of spins if you were lucky. You might get in front and leave early, and that's not what online casinos want.

Not a fucking chance in hell of that today; the base game is nothing more than a front-game where you pay for the bonus. Give us your fucking money quickly and we'll chuck a bonus at you, a lot of which are high-variance as well. There's nothing to match the feeling of losing £35 at 20p a spin in Sugar Rush to get a bonus that goes for £0.73 is there?

Very well put. Exactly my thoughts as well. Base game nowadays pays fuck all and the only way to win is to either buy a bonus or wait until one lands. And even then absolutely nothing is guaranteed. The bonus could pay 5x bet.

There's not really any point in playing slots anymore. I get no kick out of buying bonuses on slots and the base game is dead spin city on most slots, so it's become fucking boring to look at 200-300 spins that are mostly dead spins and just wait for the bonus to come in.

 

[The Reel Story]

That just happened to be around the same time all of sudden the slots went to html. I know why they went to html. I'm sure it was to do with a security breach on flash. So it had to be done. I get that. But you have to ask yourself.......

Games were changed to HTML for several reasons, but the main two were:

1. Apple blocked flash on iPhones
2. Adobe were floating some bonkers policy of taking a revenue share of any app built in Flash. They walked it back after massive backlash (same as what happened with Unity), but combined with point 1 it caused people to jump ship. Imagine adobe taking 3% of all your gambling revenue? No chance were the Casino's or platforms going to do that.

It was a huge pain, because HTML is a shite technology and it made producing games much harder and more expensive (which is also why the production values went down). Flash was a much better technology (and more performant than HTML on mobile). Apple just wanted to push their app store, and Flash could do anything their apps could do but on the web, so they blocked it so people would go buy apps. Thanks Apple, set web technology back years.

The front end being changed from Flash to HTML did not affect the back ends. They all used the same game engine they always did (It's possible providers took the opportunity to update math models for higher volatility if they felt like it though. I can't say I ever saw this happen to a single game that ran through my area).

As for the rest of this thread, no, they're not rigged. You won't believe me, but the real reason was already addressed above around volatility and pushes towards all the payback being in bonuses. If you have infinite balance, sure, you'll get 96% return, but when you have a finite balance, high volatility means you bust out and don't get a chance to hit the 'big one' that levels out your return. This is the trend of slots these days (and I agree, it's not really great).

 

[pekka55]

Games were changed to HTML for several reasons, but the main two were:

1. Apple blocked flash on iPhones
2. Adobe were floating some bonkers policy of taking a revenue share of any app built in Flash. They walked it back after massive backlash (same as what happened with Unity), but combined with point 1 it caused people to jump ship. Imagine adobe taking 3% of all your gambling revenue? No chance were the Casino's or platforms going to do that.

It was a huge pain, because HTML is a shite technology and it made producing games much harder and more expensive (which is also why the production values went down). Flash was a much better technology (and more performant than HTML on mobile). Apple just wanted to push their app store, and Flash could do anything their apps could do but on the web, so they blocked it so people would go buy apps. Thanks Apple, set web technology back years.

The front end being changed from Flash to HTML did not affect the back ends. They all used the same game engine they always did (It's possible providers took the opportunity to update math models for higher volatility if they felt like it though. I can't say I ever saw this happen to a single game that ran through my area).

As for the rest of this thread, no, they're not rigged. You won't believe me, but the real reason was already addressed above around volatility and pushes towards all the payback being in bonuses. If you have infinite balance, sure, you'll get 96% return, but when you have a finite balance, high volatility means you bust out and don't get a chance to hit the 'big one' that levels out your return. This is the trend of slots these days (and I agree, it's not really great).

Flash was outdated and filled with holes. It was just a matter of time before it was canned. Apple or not.

 

[The Reel Story]

Flash was outdated and filled with holes. It was just a matter of time before it was canned. Apple or not.

It really wasn't. Security wise it was actually pretty solid for something that had billions of users. And technology wise it was far in advance of today's web technologies. Code something once using an event driven OO language and it would work everywhere vs HTML and JS which is totally standards based, and relies on every browser developer to implement everything in exactly the same way.

Having been on the front line of the change from Flash to HTML5, I can tell you, the cost of production and testing of games increased about 8 fold and the quality reduced. If Flash was outdated, then HTML is neolithic.

It was actually its accessibility that was the problem. It made it so easy for people to make stuff, that people who didn't really know what they were doing became 'flash developers', and they made trash apps with loads of security holes in them. The number of 'developers' I worked with who didn't know up from down was astonishing.

 

[kou187]

I will never be convinced online slots are totally random and not based on patterns of play deposits etc. I have seen way too much evidence first hand for me to think anything other than rigged burgers with

Been playing them heavy for over 10 years

 

[Guntis]

They are random enough to serve their purpose.

 

[clogs]

High volatility is what they say when everyone is used to losing all their money

 

[snorky510238]

The thing that doesn’t add up, is when you have players that have hammered certain games for years and know exactly what to expect, suddenly finding that the game no longer pays or plays, like it used to do.

There is overwhelming evidence to support these findings on games such as Bonanza, that allegedly, still runs at full rtp.

As mentioned, the vast majority (cant say all because I don’t play them) of Netent’s portfolio pay nowhere near like they did. Jungle Spirit is a prime example. Never had a great base game but x500 in the bonus was reasonably frequent. Then all of a sudden hitting a bonus that paid x100 was virtually impossible.

These aren’t coincides or huge runs of bad luck. At best it’s because the maths model has been changed but I honestly think providers are running games at lower rtp’s than advertised.

Let’s be honest, why wouldn’t they? Don’t tell me for a second that they are regulated worth a shite because I don’t believe that either, not for a second. The way the whole thing is set up makes it impossible to nail providers. There are too many outs for them.

 

[TheAddict]

After spending however long it takes to get 100+ wild lines on DOA, prior to Evo, and then donating 20,000 x stake after evo got their demonic paws all over it, to enjoy getting 5 lots of extra spins from the features accumulated within ( lets ignore the fact 5x sherriff badges or gun holsters now consistently disappear for 5x longer gaps than before during he basegame, cause its ok, because according to my play during that time, you can now actually land 5xwilds in the base game to make up for it, isn't that fucking fantasticly great, I'd never hihat prior to evo, neither hardly has anyone, so who the fuck needs a sticky wildline?!)

oh shit, where was I, ah yes, 20,000 loss, in return for 5x lots of extra spins, where 4 paid below 40x, one above 40x, paying 300x.

Sure, it spat out 5 scatters during that time, but any seasoned DOA pro will tell you this never used to happen. Ceartinly didn't happen once during the ten years I accumulated 100+ WL's anyway. Jono777's description is exactly what wha I endured with the 5oak absentees , too.

Obviously, I no longer play the game. Or any for tha matter. It was fun though, once upon a time.

 

[slot_zombie]

Built up a £200 balance on a UKGC casino last night, thought I'd chill on Raping Rhino 40p stakes for an hour or so before bed.

90 minutes later - balance 0. Bonuses achieved - 0. Highest win 2x 5OAK Rhinos

 

[snorky510238]

It gets worse by the day. Absolute piss take!

 

[DavidShush]

Imagine applying for a job, telling them you're 99% reliable, then having half the year off. Volatility boss.

 

[Valhalla]

Why do slots do this?

Player deposits 20 pounds
Player loses down to 3.91 left im the balance.

Bonus round lands, and randomly out of all the amounts it could randomly select. It happens to put you right back to the balance you just had. This can happen over and over through out sessions were it almost feels like there a thresholds in place.

Random burgers with chips

Was gonna say this, happens to me all the time. Bonus game takes me back up to within a few pence of my starting balance, which is routinely destroyed thereafter.

L’il Devil is the worst for it. Finally unlock heartstopper spins and win just enough to take me to the start of my last deposit. Sigh…