Random my ****

[jasonuk]

I worked it out mathematically, that’s how I got it. The min ways is 2x3x3x3x3x2 = 324. Then you have every permutation in between, up to the 117.

They wouldn't have equal probability though - so even if there are 22,000 permutations, the odds of any one of them happening isn't necessarily 1 in 22,000...

 

[snorky510238]

They wouldn't have equal probability though - so even if there are 22,000 permutations, the odds of any one of them happening isn't necessarily 1 in 22,000...

Perhaps not but how else can you state the frequency? The only thing you can base it on, is the maths you are given.

That is partly my point. The Max Megaways occurs way more often, than it statistically should. If slots work the way you guys are advocating. You can’t have it both ways.

You’re saying well they work like this, apart from when they don’t work like this but it’s all okay.

 

[snorky510238]

They wouldn't have equal probability though - so even if there are 22,000 permutations, the odds of any one of them happening isn't necessarily 1 in 22,000...

Why?

 

[TheAddict]

I know each spin is supposed to be independent. But something has been bugging me for a while. I played a lot of 1line, where its easy to noice the 1 away type of big misses, since they stand out on the 1 line.
With BOD, for example, while you're enjoying a win rate of 1 in 650, it feels as though in order to keep you entertained (in 2024, aka pissed off), when its one big paying symbol or 2 big paying symbols missing from 50ak, it has this amazing ability to produce the 2 symbols (big paying symbols, so symbols that should be more rare) exactly where you hoped they'd land previously, but on the following spin.
It began to feel that situations like that were way to common not to be programmed in. It ceartinly does i way more often than I'd ever have beleieved. I began to laugh and expect it after a while.

I know each spin is independent, but after bashing 1 line for a long while, can/do some do that?
I mean, some code like 'if previous spin was a big 5oak symbol tease, lolol, & current spin is destined as a lose, lolol, produce symbols that missed on previous spin on currnt already gash destined spin, lolol.'

Or have I just blazed toooo much weed?

 

[jasonuk]

Why?

Because not all mechanics have to be true random - the regulations focus on mechanisms that have a real-world equivalent, for example a slot reel, a roulette wheel or a pie gamble. The odds of that, unless otherwise stated, should be representative.

Although in recent years it is clear that regulators have lost touch with this given we have magnetic roulette, pre-determined "picks" that reveal a fake result, and disconnected pie gambles. Similarly a significant percentage of slots don't use real mechanics at all - such as "drops" - which means they can pretty much what they want.

So while we talk about the reels being genuine, that doesn't prevent other parts from being weighted random or controlled within the game rules - including the number of megaways and which reelset is being used.

As an example, Twin Spin used to restrict which reel could be expanded if you had 4 or 5 connected - so it was impossible to get a full screen of the top symbols. If I recall correctly, 3-4-5 could give you 3 diamonds (for the maximum 27 ways), but 2-3-4-5 could not.

If in doubt (and this applies to @TheAddict too), starting making a note of the statistics - it's very easy for humans to see patterns where they don't exist (and gambling companies certainly pray on apophenia, as well as the positive-negative emotional bias we exhibit).

 

[trancemonkey]

Okay, for those of you that haven’t come across me before on this forum. I am the one that keeps banging the drum regarding Providers/slots being rigged, bent, paying out less than advertised rtp, etc. You name it, I’ve said it. Not just lately but from day 1.

Of course, I am always met with, tinfoiler, deluded, imagining things, seeing patterns that aren’t there, etc, etc.

I am always confronted with where’s the proof and so on. I honestly wish that I had recorded everything I’ve ever done in relation to online gambling but to backtrack 7 year with as much play as I have done is impossible. (At least in my lifetime).

So, I decided in mid December to play a game at a Casino where my stats would be there for me to check, in black and white. (Well, colour actually but you get my drift).

I decided to pick a game at random, that I had never played, ever before. Christmas Carol Megaways came up first so went for that.

My heart sank when I saw it was by Pragmatic because I have never won anything decent on their games but had seeen others had so decided perhaps I hadn’t give them a decent shot. BIG MISTAKE!

I started playing 40p spins and quickly noticed that if I increased to 50p I would increase the chance of landing a bonus. Must do that then, mustn’t we.

The game is 94 odd% and here is the absolute filth that this slot has served up at @Mr Vegas.

I have done 9,235 spins and landed 44 bonuses. From memory, three were 5 scatter triggers and 1 was a six scatter trigger that went for an amazing x28…..Yeah x28!

On all but about 5 occasions, I took the 10 spins option with a starting multiplier of x5.

The results are as follows;

X16
X41
X42
X2
X41
X2
X10
X67
X6
X18
X38
X15
X44
X35
X62
X21
X13
X20
X27
X59
X26
X24
X14
X9
X43
X10
X58
X26
X18
X31
X39
X28
X28
X29
X57
X47
X33
X72
X11
X17
X62
X38
X62
X12

Biggest bonus x72
Biggest base hit x82

Yep, over £4,500 wagered through (and the base game is shite) and not a single win over x100 and an rtp around 20% less than expected.

Now, I know you can have bad runs, etc, etc but these stats are disgusting and I don’t think it would matter which game I had chosen because providers are all getting away with murder, right now. Even @ChopleyIOM will struggle to brush this under the carpet, although I am sure he’ll try his best.

View attachment 193475View attachment 193476

Just because a game is shit (which this is) doesn't make it rigged..

 

[slotmaster]

oh snap, trancemonkey sighting!

 

[snorky510238]

Just because a game is shit (which this is) doesn't make it rigged..

It’s not ethically or morally in keeping with fair standards though, is it?

My mistake, I forgot, there aren’t any.

 

[rtesone1]

'Megaways' games to me are super fun, and I've had decent wins on this slot. I haven't done a study to prove it, but I've noticed that it may be 'seasonal.' At this time before the end of the month the slot may need to meet profit 'quotas' and be tighter. I read in a forum, probably Reddit, that a slot programmer described what RTP was, and he said in a convoluted way, that it is always random, but the range of the RTP can be chosen. Meaning that the slot can chosen to pay at this time between 50% and 60% (this is the randomness), and not the advertised 96.4% in a billion spins.

 

[jasonuk]

'Megaways' games to me are super fun, and I've had decent wins on this slot. I haven't done a study to prove it, but I've noticed that it may be 'seasonal.' At this time before the end of the month the slot may need to meet profit 'quotas' and be tighter. I read in a forum, probably Reddit, that a slot programmer described what RTP was, and he said in a convoluted way, that it is always random, but the range of the RTP can be chosen. Meaning that the slot can chosen to pay at this time between 50% and 60% (this is the randomness), and not the advertised 96.4% in a billion spins.

That isn't what they mean at all - with the exception of scheduled jackpots (e.g. daily drops), time of day is irrelevant in almost all gambling activities.

What they mean is that a game will have multiple math models available (designed with different reel strips, win frequency etc), and the casino can choose which one they want to deploy - e.g. 96%, 94% or 92%. Each spin should be independent and random, and for a large enough number of spins it will trend towards the theoretical RTP - any deviation in the short term would be referred to as variance (i.e. the volatility of random numbers).

If the casino wants to change that model, they have to go through a defined process - and in some jurisdictions (such as the UK) they are required to inform customers that the game has changed. Additionally for markets that require RTP disclosure, that RTP change will be displayed in the help file.

 

[dunover]

Why?

Reel sizes are weighted - you've made the mistake of thinking that reel height of the six reels is randomly decided, per reel, per spin. The result is simply eye candy, you can get a zero result on the game and any number of ways to represent it from 324 to 117649. Same with a 32x win. The number of ways displayed is almost irrelevant, the win result including any tumbles is already selected. Look how many spins on max ways 'fail' to tumble after any initial win, yet you get these stoooopid spins of say 1440 ways whereby you get about 5 or 6 winning tumbles because the single symbols necessary are all conveniently lined up for you both on the top scroll and tumbles above visible reel columns.

 

[snorky510238]

Well all I can make of it now, is that it is a complete load of bollox, just as I have said all along.

 

[clogs]

Slots are not random.. they give you nice hits a few times now and then to keep you hooked but will make sure to give you long dead spells to send you on tilt where there's a good chance you will keep depositing and go broke

Letting someone get there balance up 10% over 30 mins and hundreds of spins, to suddenly lose all your balance in 5 mins is how they get you to deposit 5-10x your balance which they will take in an hour.

 

[jasonuk]

Just because a game is shit (which this is) doesn't make it rigged..

Seems like this statement is going to get a lot of mileage in this thread

Slots are not random.. they give you nice hits a few times now and then to keep you hooked but will make sure to give you long dead spells to send you on tilt where there's a good chance you will keep depositing and go broke

Letting someone get there balance up 10% over 30 mins and hundreds of spins, to suddenly lose all your balance in 5 mins is how they get you to deposit 5-10x your balance which they will take in an hour.

Or, as happens a lot now-a-days, people don't understand the profile of the slots they are playing.

A lot of the streamer dross being published now-a-days is intended to get you to spend faster (bonus buys), and focus on big wins rather than playtime. It's not uncommon to be running sub-50% over 1000 spins, something that would have been unthinkable 10 years ago. Even at the lowest stakes your balance will take a beating playing these games.

As discussed last month, Bonus Buy Parody (NLC's 9to5) pays the top win 16,000 times more frequently than a "spicy" 243-way slot from Microgaming 10 years prior called Avalon 2. When so much RTP is going into those big wins, the unlucky ones are going straight down to zero - it can't be any other way.

A lot of work goes into checking games are random - whether they are true random (as discussed earlier in the thread) is a fairer question and in many cases the answer is no, because they use scripted game rounds (akin to a scratchcard) or a "player decision" is decided by an RNG call in advance. That doesn't stop them being random, but it does cause a disconnect between the player's understanding of random and the behaviour used - because when a casual player talks about random, they inevitably mean "true random" (rather than weighted random).

 

[snorky510238]

Or, as happens a lot now-a-days, people don't understand the profile of the slots they are playing.

No shit, Sherlock.

How could anyone know exactly how a slot is working unless they programmed the bloody thing?

What is obvious, is they don’t play as you’re trying to make out. Not a chance!

There is absolutely some form of compensation or whatever you want to call it.

I have sessions where I can do 500 spins and not one of them pays over x10. Happens over and over. Then you get the session where it’s ready to pay and bingo. More features in one session than you’ve seen in a week and several hits over x100.

Play it the next day and it will shaft the living daylights out of you. The reason players see patterns is because they’ve impossible to miss, you’d have to be blind.

 

[johnnymcc1966]

No shit, Sherlock.

How could anyone know exactly how a slot is working unless they programmed the bloody thing?

What is obvious, is they don’t play as you’re trying to make out. Not a chance!

There is absolutely some form of compensation or whatever you want to call it.

I have sessions where I can do 500 spins and not one of them pays over x10. Happens over and over. Then you get the session where it’s ready to pay and bingo. More features in one session than you’ve seen in a week and several hits over x100.

Play it the next day and it will shaft the living daylights out of you. The reason players see patterns is because they’ve impossible to miss, you’d have to be blind.

I suggest you play this for a better chance of randomness nowadays.

 

[snorky510238]

I suggest you play this for a better chance of randomness nowadays.

Well, with all the changing reels for this, changing symbols for that, you can’t blame the player for not fully understanding things.

And there’s another thing. To audit a game properly, you would need a whizz of a programmer who has access to the all the data. Can’t see that happening!

Seriously, even if these slots are tested over billions of spins, what’s to stop providers changing things on the fly afterwards?

 

[jasonuk]

No shit, Sherlock.

How could anyone know exactly how a slot is working unless they programmed the bloody thing?

What is obvious, is they don’t play as you’re trying to make out. Not a chance!

Agreed, there are an increasing number of slots now that are impossible to verify as a player. Once the shackles of "real world equivalent" came off, providers absolutely started taking the piss.

If the game is scripted + single RNG call (the "balls in the bag" scenario), how do you verify the contents of the bag? How do you know that a jackpot ball hasn't been removed? The RTP is the only clue that this has happened.

Well, with all the changing reels for this, changing symbols for that, you can’t blame the player for not fully understanding things.

And there’s another thing. To audit a game properly, you would need a whizz of a programmer who has access to the all the data. Can’t see that happening!

Seriously, even if these slots are tested over billions of spins, what’s to stop providers changing things on the fly afterwards?

There will be procedures in place (split responsibility, audit trails etc) to protect things being changed on the fly - although a dishonest provider could do that (and would then have to cover it up during an audit, e.g. what we've seen with some of the financial scandals where the company was bent and the auditor turned a blind eye before everything blew up). A lot of it comes back to trust - there are providers out there who have demonstrated that trust over years and decades, similarly there are those who you should run a mile from.

In a way, scratchcard slots share a similarity with "hacked" slots of yesteryear - you as the player have an understanding of how the game is supposed to function, but the actual operation has little to no relation to that understanding.

It's a mess for sure - plenty of players don't care that they are being lied to (fake streamers, scripted slots etc) until they realise they never win anymore (the position we're now getting to), the industry has an interest in hiding the details as slots become increasingly underhanded in how they operate (high volatility, lower RTP, stored value traps etc), and don't expect the fake money streamers to help on that front - all they care about is max wins and potential (and you losing your money to their revshare affiliate link).

If only the regulators would step up to the plate... they didn't for Scammin Jars, so I doubt they'll be doing so now.

 

[Kroffe]

Seems like this statement is going to get a lot of mileage in this thread


Or, as happens a lot now-a-days, people don't understand the profile of the slots they are playing.

A lot of the streamer dross being published now-a-days is intended to get you to spend faster (bonus buys), and focus on big wins rather than playtime. It's not uncommon to be running sub-50% over 1000 spins, something that would have been unthinkable 10 years ago. Even at the lowest stakes your balance will take a beating playing these games.

As discussed last month, Bonus Buy Parody (NLC's 9to5) pays the top win 16,000 times more frequently than a "spicy" 243-way slot from Microgaming 10 years prior called Avalon 2. When so much RTP is going into those big wins, the unlucky ones are going straight down to zero - it can't be any other way.

A lot of work goes into checking games are random - whether they are true random (as discussed earlier in the thread) is a fairer question and in many cases the answer is no, because they use scripted game rounds (akin to a scratchcard) or a "player decision" is decided by an RNG call in advance. That doesn't stop them being random, but it does cause a disconnect between the player's understanding of random and the behaviour used - because when a casual player talks about random, they inevitably mean "true random" (rather than weighted random).

Allegedly a lot of work goes into making sure a game is random, but we all know that games slipping thru the testing stage with significant errors is not exactly an uncommon thing.

Sure, we hear once in a blue moon about cases where this works in the players favor, but games being taken down only to re-appear a couple weeks later without any word of why is much more common.
And since there is no changelog a player can look at there is really no way of knowing what or if something has been changed.

I can kind of believe that there is a somewhat proper testing done in the early stages, but i highly doubt there is any rigorous testing being performed once a slot has been given the 'all-clear' from a testing house.
And once again that is not something you as a player can check, you cant 'download' a slot and simulate the billions of game rounds needed.

And really, if everything is above board why are such tools not available to us plebs to play around with?
The lack of transparency is imo the biggest factor that makes people think there might be something amiss, when you are told to blindly trust casinos that time and time again gets caught doing things they are not allowed to (just check the list of fines for any given market, it will be a mile long) its not weird that people have doubts.

You could of course report to the governing body in you country if you think something is wrong, but i think we all know where such a report would end up.

 

[jasonuk]

Allegedly a lot of work goes into making sure a game is random, but we all know that games slipping thru the testing stage with significant errors is not exactly an uncommon thing.

Agreed, I would say there are three main categories of errors:

• Visual annoyances - they don't interfere with the gameplay but players will pick up on the sloppiness of the development and testing
• Visual errors - the UI disagrees with the game engine, for example with The Final Countdown. This doesn't impact the RTP, but causes a lot of headaches because what the player sees isn't what happened. I believe these are more likely because most of the testing goes into the engine, rather than engine + visuals.
• Engine errors - the engine disagrees with the game rules or makes a false assumption, for example with Street Fighter 2. This can impact the RTP (both upwards and downwards) and is a significant failure of the test house. In many cases this information isn't published, and refunds that should be forthcoming often aren't - which is a significant breach of the trust cycle.

Beyond that, we get into foul play - e.g. a game abusing the RNG and selecting results - so the scenario where the RNG is certified, but the game isn't using the RNG as intended.

As the saying goes - "trust, but verify". The problem is the latter is becoming increasing difficult to action.

 

[interlog]

And really, if everything is above board why are such tools not available to us plebs to play around with?

I am guessing some of it has to do with the intellectual property of the slot design. If you for example take the megaways engine that was designed by BTG, why would they make the math model behind it available for all to use, when it can easily be marketed and sold?

 

[Reelsoffun]

I see where snorks is coming from on the 22,000 chance etc as looking at it logically its

6*5*5*5*5*6 = 22,500 but that's the chance if there is no weighting or another random event that just triggers a max board for example a 1 in 500 on top of the other odds.

The megaways game I did does both these things, a natural max ways that is weighted differently so each reel does not have equal chance of being 2,3,4,5,6,7 high, but then there is also a random event that can trigger or "force if that's what you want to call it" a max ways separately eg a 1 in 500 event. In the case of max ways a different reel set to a normal spin is used. Does this mean its not random? NO.

The overall dynamic of mine is different as it does not cascade, easy to see why in the bonus, but in principle is uses the same methods.

My game also awards an extra spin and increases multiplier by one every win in the bonus so do expect a good few dead spins, but even low wins will start to make the bonus exciting as they effectively give you the spin back and increase your multi.

However the nice twist is that at least one max ways is guaranteed so if you not had it yet and your multi is on the move it can get quite exciting. As we all know a lot of max ways are blank or close to it but there are some great ones and snag one on a late multi and your looking at a monster. Like most HV games your just after the mother load spin

Until recently I had no way to replay a game round, its only a SIM after all but now its added so I will replay and vid any fun ones if anyone interested LOL probably not!

 

[snorky510238]

I see where snorks is coming from on the 22,000 chance etc as looking at it logically its

6*5*5*5*5*6 = 22,500 but that's the chance if there is no weighting or another random event that just triggers a max board for example a 1 in 500 on top of the other odds.

The megaways game I did does both these things, a natural max ways that is weighted differently so each reel does not have equal chance of being 2,3,4,5,6,7 high, but then there is also a random event that can trigger or "force if that's what you want to call it" a max ways separately eg a 1 in 500 event. In the case of max ways a different reel set to a normal spin is used. Does this mean its not random? NO.

The overall dynamic of mine is different as it does not cascade, easy to see why in the bonus, but in principle is uses the same methods.

My game also awards an extra spin and increases multiplier by one every win in the bonus so do expect a good few dead spins, but even low wins will start to make the bonus exciting as they effectively give you the spin back and increase your multi.

However the nice twist is that at least one max ways is guaranteed so if you not had it yet and your multi is on the move it can get quite exciting. As we all know a lot of max ways are blank or close to it but there are some great ones and snag one on a late multi and your looking at a monster. Like most HV games your just after the mother load spin

Until recently I had no way to replay a game round, its only a SIM after all but now its added so I will replay and vid any fun ones if anyone interested LOL probably not!

For god sake get the game out there and save us from the absolute filth that BTG/Evolution are murdering players with. Change the symbols to different types of slugs! Anything would be better than the filth providers are throwing out there.

The problem you will have, is if your game genuinely pays 96%, Casinos won’t entertain it when all their other slots are being run illegally on rtp’s well below advertised.

Playing online slots has the same predictable outcome as tying a live white mouse to your todger and sitting two feet away from a coiled rattle snake and wondering what might happen.

 

[goatwack]

For god sake get the game out there and save us from the absolute filth that BTG/Evolution are murdering players with. Change the symbols to different types of slugs! Anything would be better than the filth providers are throwing out there.

The problem you will have, is if your game genuinely pays 96%, Casinos won’t entertain it when all their other slots are being run illegally on rtp’s well below advertised.

Playing online slots has the same predictable outcome as tying a live white mouse to your todger and sitting two feet away from a coiled rattle snake and wondering what might happen.

It'll probably randomly miss both

 

[Reelsoffun]

For god sake get the game out there and save us from the absolute filth that BTG/Evolution are murdering players with. Change the symbols to different types of slugs! Anything would be better than the filth providers are throwing out there.

The problem you will have, is if your game genuinely pays 96%, Casinos won’t entertain it when all their other slots are being run illegally on rtp’s well below advertised.

Playing online slots has the same predictable outcome as tying a live white mouse to your todger and sitting two feet away from a coiled rattle snake and wondering what might happen.

Well just did a bonus buy for £750 and it paid £28.95 so you might not want to play it after all LOL I didn't say it wasn't brutal at times because it is!

TRTP is 96.03%
Current = 91.63%

Think bonanza had a baby with a hacksaw

Edit: Just hit a base hit on a max